Dave Plough
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Collaborative Conversations. I'm your only host today, Dave Plough. My my usual co-host, Doctor Barbara Maxwell, will be joining us In the second part of our Healing Through Scars interview with the USC Keck School of Medicine's, Artists in Residence, Ted Meyer. they spent a lot of that first interview speaking about how Ted got to where he is, you know, how he began using art, and why he began using art to express himself and how he's begun using it to try and help speak to the overall medical community. Right? To help patients share their stories, to help individuals share their stories. In this half, we're going to talk a little bit more. We're in continue on that second half of that path We'll talk about the human side of health care is what we're really going to talk about in this half, and how important that is, especially coming from a patient's perspective, because at the end of the day, we all end up as patients. Everybody becomes a patient at one time or another. So empathy is important. And this is kind of Ted's way to help share that. I want to take too much of the hot air out of that balloon with my talking. so what I'm going to do instead is I want to plug Ted's website here. If you want to learn more about Ted, you can do so at Ted, Viacom and you can visit our website, ipu.edu you will find a section called Collaborative Topics. And under there you'll see something called the Voices of Healing, which was a residency. We brought Ted in. He did three nights in Bloomington. He did two nights in Indianapolis, where we had a number of conversations between Ted providers and patients and other artists. with that said, I'm going to go ahead and cut out here and toss things over to Barbara.

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
How do we on the healthcare side get to that point where we hear the story? Number one, we gotta ask for the story, and often we're dying checking our list and we do a session with our learners. where they get notes about a person like they normally would when they would see them clinically. We ask them, write down what you think are the most important things you that needed rest for this person. Was it but the top two three problems that you can see there? Then we pull them together across professions and ask them to collate those together into the top three. And then we ask them to interview two people to partners. to ask, you know, what's most important to you? And they are absolutely sure shocked that the things that the two people they actually speak to that are in a relationship, the things that they say are different from each other, but they're incredibly different from the list that they put together. We had a learner once who said, and I said, can you tell us what happened when you interviewed the person they interviewed called Sam. When you interviewed Sam, you know, what did you learn? I didn't learn anything. All they're concerned about is their partner. They did. I didn't learn anything helpful at all, just that they were absolutely concerned with their partner. And, you know, it's it I said at the time, they're telling you a really light and clear message that what's most important to them is what's going on with for their partner, not their own health care, what's going on for their partner, but the fact that the process is diagnostic. They didn't hear that until I had to say it. They're giving you a really clear and light message of what's most important. You're just not hearing it. So is some of that the intent when you put a health professional with someone who is telling their story of their health and illness, is that the intent of that is to net those pieces?

Ted Meyer
So originally when I started doing these art shows, I would just have the artist talk about their artwork. And I had one artist who did this beautiful work. She had had cancer. She had come through chemo, survive. Really powerful, full body charcoal drawings that very gothy looking. They really sort of look like death. You could tell what she was going through when she did these, but she was totally convinced that the chemo had nothing to do with her surviving, that it was all some herbs and stuff she had read about online. And I thought, well, I better get a doctor on stage with her. Not to argue with her, but to explain the Western medicine side to the med students and explain why what she was saying might have validity or might not. But what happened at that talks, I mean, that did happen. But hearing the doctor talk about these images that so depicted the emotional side of the illness, all of a sudden the talks were it was this magical thing that happened. So then we started repeating that. And what surprised me over the years is how insightful the doctors are. So what we do is we get the head of that department, you know, neurology, respiratory, whatever, and then we put them on stage with the artist and their insight into the art is always striking to me. The parallels they can pull between treatment and what they're seeing. It's also a testament to how good the artists we find are. there really is something to hear the back and forth, and sometimes the doctors will correct the patients, like there's a lot of patients that don't understand the all the minutia of their treatment, and they can say something that actually isn't right, that maybe they read on the internet. The doctor can correct them because our audience is med students, so they need to know the actual facts. And then we give a chance to the the artists, the patient artists to also talk about the good and bad things that have happened to them in treatment times they weren't listened to or at least felt they weren't listened to, and how they feel the medical establishment could treat things better. So it it is this big back and forth, you know. But I was thinking while you were talking about how this form you gave and how the people had different answers, and I was thinking of, you know, the old newlywed game where people they'd have the newlyweds and then give different answers. But we had a doctor in once that we were doing a show on pain and I was talking about this little faces, you know, the one through five, how are you doing? And she was like, I don't use those anymore because they they don't really tell us anything. My question is, what can't you do now that you used to be able to do? And and I thought that was really brilliant because I every time I go to the doctor, I'm thinking they show me that stupid little chart. And I think that doesn't tell anything, but the fact that I can walk a little less or I can walk a little more, that that does tell you something. So I it's it's like your students, it's how do you ask the question, how do you what information are you looking for? Like does it hurt to walk or can you not walk? You know.

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah. And it's those. So when you give examples of, you know, those people from the medical profession that you have talking with the artists and you said that they're really good at kind of seeing those insights in it. I think when we're, when we, when we're seasoned and we've been doing this a long time and we are, you know, focused on the person and doing our best for the person, which a lot of people go into health care to really provide care, to look after the person. So, you know, it's a good, intent. But it's often the process is the time that we get getting, you know, being shrunk. And so what can you do very productively in a narrow window. But there's lots written about, even matter how much time you have, there's like, techniques for seven seconds of empathy and seven seconds of empathy make a difference. It's the ways that you speak, the way that you listen, the way that you can use ten minutes, for example, which is the average appointment time for a physician. You can use ten minutes very carefully and gracefully to hear that story and to get that information. Or you can use ten minutes to go through a process. And I think what we're trying to do is cultivate that sense of use your time to learn from the expertise of this person sitting in front of you who knows more about this condition, the new day, because they live it. You know, the biology behind it, the possibilities of the science, where it sits now for, you know, some, you know, activities, things that they can do that increase their function or to improve their kind of their mobility, you know, those things and that you're stepping into this life long story and this moment to be this, but the story stays theirs and they continue on. So I think in my mind, I'm always saying, if you really recognize that you're stepping in in a moment, this life, this illness, the story, it's all belongs to this person and your moment. And it is transitory, important, but transitory. This is way more important than your moment here, you know. So pay attention to this. That's kind of how I it.

Ted Meyer
So for my illness, which is a lysosomal storage disorder. Illness. I take, one pill a day. I used to have to take an IV every two weeks. Now I take one pill a day. Super expensive. And there's. I'm not going to go into what they all are, but there's some side effects from us. Pill. And every time I said to the doctor, I've got these side effects, they went, that's not on the list. That's not on the list of side effects. And I said, well, I know it's a side effect because once I take the pill for about 3 or 4 weeks, I get these side effects. I go off the pill for a week, it goes away, and then I start and slowly builds up and no one, they don't listen to you when you say if it's not on their list, but I know my body. I can tell what's going on with my body and it's, you know, it's been one of the things I just finally stop telling them, you know, like with a rare disease, there's supposed

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah.

Ted Meyer
a a side effect, it's supposed to go somewhere on a list. So I, I don't know, but I was going to say I went to a lecture the other day and they were talking about this time management thing, they've been doing. This was a kick. You know, people were always saying, well, we only got 20 minutes with the doctor. We only got ten minutes with the doctor and the, you know, we've been sitting here for three hours, and they found that if the doctor walks in before the the previous appointment and goes, I have another appointment, I will be with you in 30 minutes. Then all of a sudden, they didn't feel like everything was so compressed into that ten minutes. They felt like they were her. They knew what was coming. They felt, you know, like the doctor was more aware of them and what they were doing. And just that little bit of going, we haven't forgotten that you're sitting in this waiting room and we will get to you next. Made a whole difference in the outcome

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah. Those little things. I was hearing from someone who, was laughed for several hours and thought that they had forgotten them when they went in for a procedure. And could you imagine for several hours sitting, thinking that you've been forgotten, but you're undressed so you can't go I and ask because you're waiting for a procedure. You know, just the two hours of no one coming to say those little things that really make a difference, you know? we're in culturally and health care setting to be process focused and, productivity focused. But there's really, some beautiful work about when you actually focus on productivity and process. Health systems are always changing their process to be more productive. it doesn't change the outcomes for people. It changes the way you do it, but it doesn't change the outcomes. If we focus on effective illness, effectiveness is about the human factors in the setting, the ways that you engage with people, the way that you work together, all the things that are in my world of like interprofessional collaboration and collective competence. If you focus on those things, the human side, that your outcomes actually improve. But if you leave the human side, right, the effectiveness, but you only deal with the productivity, then things don't improve. So but it's very difficult. The productivity is easy to document. It's easy to tell people what it is expected to do. The human side is a lot more difficult to ask people to pause, to learn new ways of doing, to challenge the system the way that it runs at the moment, and to engage in different behavior, is incredibly difficult, but incredibly impactful. But it's the piece that is so hard to change.

Ted Meyer
And I think, you know, for your students coming up, I just had to get a new GP and I go through Cedars in L.A. They all have Yelp reviews now. Like if you treat them like shit, if you or ignore your patients or don't act like they are important to you, it's it's good to be there. And maybe there's a enough shortage of medical workers that you still go to find work, but, you know, you know, everybody gets to say, now.

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
And I would say I've been fortunate in having some amazing, particularly family doctors in the past, who have just listened, who've been there with. 1Yeah. 2Who's empathize to, who've, like, reached out a hand and popped it on your hand, said, it's okay. It's going to be okay. Like, these things don't take time. They take thought to the human and.

Ted Meyer
about this before. The the idea that pick your specialty to match your personality. 7If you're somebody who runs on adrenaline, you should work in an emergency room and not be that cheap. That is going to be around people that need the hand-holding over 10 or 20 years, I think that's so important because I've been with doctors that are just, you know, they don't make eye contact. They're this an eye. They should be in the back doing research, being anesthesiologists, just putting people to sleep, you know. 

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah. I always wonder about surgeons. That's a particular skill set to be able to open the body of another person. That takes a certain way of being and doing to be okay with that. And when you've been doing that a long time, that must be incredibly difficult to continue to do because it's it's difficult work and in a way that probably others wouldn't understand. And so I know there's all the issues with burnout within health care across professions and, you know, the need for institutions to really think about how to keep the healthcare workforce well, so that we can help keep the people and populations that come to see as well. But when we have systems that don't allow us to do things that are incredibly impactful, like, I mean, Covid was not a good experience. But the fact that what we know help keep teams functioning exceptionally well was that human connection and people lining up in PPE and, you know, hands on, massaging each other's backs, giving whatever you can't give proper physical contact. But but some human connection or a colleague of mine told me that her and her colleagues would leave work, would go park the cars up beside each other and cry in the car because there was there was community. You couldn't be with that person at those community and collective crying. You know, the ways in which humans connect. And so to, to me, listening to people's stories, hearing that narrative is a way to invest in their humanity of this, this person whose life I'm stepping into in a moment but their life continues on without me. I'm not the most important person. I'm here for a purpose because I can help with this right now. And if I can do that with a sense of humanity, and always recognizing that person on the other side could be me. 

Ted Meyer
But I, I, you know, you and I have talked a number of times about. Even though these people travel through. The how important these people, the these students that you're working with are like when they. And I always use the example of it, like the guy who took my spleen out or the the doctor who did my hip replacement, they would have no idea who I am if I walked up to them on the street. But those two people are like burned in my memory and how they treated me, and they might do the procedure they did on me five times a week. I wouldn't be surprised. It's routine for them, but these were two of the major things in my life, and they are associated with that and how they treated me with that, and whether they have a good bedside manner or didn't have a good bedside manner. And I think it's really important you know, for your students and to remember that, even if they get bored, if it gets routine for them, it is a major life. Whatever they're doing with people, even if it's just helping with the bedpan, it's a major

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Now.

Ted Meyer
memory for them for the rest of their life. And they're they're going to have that opinion of you. And they could write a Yelp review. 

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Who? So I think that's. That's a good place for us to, to come to an end, because we've. We've talked about a lot. But I wanted to make sure that before we finished talking, we have a chance for you to share where people would find, this, scar project and where they would find those interviews. So.

Ted Meyer
So I have I have two websites to use. One is just Ted meyer.com. That's all my art and news about things I'm doing. And then the scar project. Well, there's actually three. There's the scarred for life project.com, and that also has stuff. I just have a new film coming out about my work with veterans, and their scars. That's on there. And then Art and med and all the talks I've done for you and other websites and everything for the last eight years from my talks with USC, between artists and doctors. Those are all in that website, and everybody is willing to use them. I'm hoping people will use them for education reasons around the world. So three sites and, Ted Meyer, Barden Med and Scarred for life project. 

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Thank said. And I would really. Just as a closing remark. One. Everyone, please go and watch those interviews. They're incredibly impactful. Real. There's not a one of them that I've ever watched, Ted, where I don't leave with a lot of insight and also a lot of questions and a lot of thoughts, about how I would practice what I would do in those circumstances. There are stories of great beauty in there, of the connectedness of, clinicians providing care and the people they provide care to. So there's some that, to me, are incredibly impactful. So if people want to know about what person centered care actually looks like, then, watch, some of Ted's interviews.

Ted Meyer
Great. And they're again. They're on the Art and med site, and there's a drop down USC conversations. And that's where those all are. 

Dave Plough
Barbara and Ted, thank you so much for having this conversation. I appreciate you both for doing this, for helping with this project and coming on and just being a part of collaborative conversations. If you want more from Barbara, you can find more from her on our website IPE.IU.EDU. You can email her. You can email our department. You can also find us on LinkedIn at Indiana University Interprofessional Practice and Education Center. On top of all that, if you want more from Ted, you can find Ted more of Ted on our website at IPE.IU.Edu Under our Collaborative Topics page where you can find the voices of healing. Again, I said at the top of the show, it was a three night residency in Bloomington, two nights in Indianapolis that he came to Indiana and delivered. It was incredible. I would highly recommend anyone check it out. And finally, if you just want more collaborative conversations, if you want to hear more about what's going on in collaborative work, both in the education aspect of things and also in the real world application, you can go and you can listen to season one. That's all about education. 80It's all about bringing collaborative interprofessional practice and education, doing the education part of it. This season two has been all about taking in the real world, showing you, letting everyone know, hey, this stuff works. This stuff exists in this stuff is important. That's what season two is all about. So with that, I want to say thank you all for listening and we will catch you next time on collaborative Conversations.