Dave Plough
Welcome to Collaborative Conversations. I am one of your regular hosts, Dave Plough. As you can see, I'm solo today, and that's okay, because today we have three people in our interview. We have our host types, Alex Buchanan, and then we have Todd Burkhart and John Kessler. Now, Alex, Todd and John have worked in collaboration over the last few years to put together something known as the Veteran Trauma and Transparency Program. If you followed us much on social media or our website, chances are you've heard about this. We have tons of student testimonials and faculty testimonials about what this program does for people, what it's all about, and how it helps. And part of the reason we've chosen to focus on this, actually, the main reason we've chosen to focus on this particular program as our final bonus episode is because of the collaboration involved in this. This program has been put together by us, IU, AYP, by the IU center for Rural Engagement, the IU Department of Criminal Justice, and the IU School of Social Work. this is a big endeavor, it involves lots of students from all over the spectrum. We don't just focus on medical learners here. We don't just focus on health learners there. We don't just focus on social issues. Everyone is invited to these because there's not a spot in life where you may not end up interacting with a veteran. We all know someone who served. We all have someone who has done their time in the military in our lives. So it's important that we understand kind of their culture, what it's like to have been in the military and then come back from service. So in this interview, we give a little bit of, how the program was created, but we get a lot more of why the program was created, what it involves, and how you can become a part of it. So with that introduction, we will go ahead and toss things over to Alex Todd and John.

Alex Buchanan
I, I'm really excited for for this afternoon session because it's, two people that I've worked with for a long time now. And, I like to think I have a good rapport with and just excited to kind of dive deep into a project that I've played a small piece in, in helping develop. So and thank you guys for that opportunity. Developing the program. So is looking back at some of our past emails, some of our past notes, all that good stuff. And for my recollection, as far as how the veteran veteran trauma and transparency program started, I believe it was back in spring of 2022, fall of 2022, when John Todd, you guys approached me about maybe developing program, seeing what we could do at IAP as a method of support and function of supports. And then we started meeting and kind of exchanging outlines for opportunities for collaboration. But I'm curious, Todd, what do you remember as far as kind of the start of this program?

Todd Burkhardt
Yeah. I mean, I think, well, a couple of things. I think it was incredibly organic. For one and two. I know, Alex, you just said you played a small part, but that's a lie. You played a significant part in this. this is how I remember it. I had worked with John for 5 or 6 years on various different programs. More on the administrative side of helping funding and other opportunities to center for real engagement. And John worked on a program known as Trauma Informed Care. And he looked at specific populations, one being children, one being those with disability or having disabilities, and another one was the veteran population. I had served a long time in the military, in the Army, and he asked me if I'd be interested in being interviewed. And I think that really began, you know, a relationship with John in this type of capacity of working together. And so I think, I think that component was building. And then also roughly just a little bit later than that, start working with IPI, interprofessional practice education and center on various different projects, regarding health screenings and others. And so really had an opportunity to meet you, Alex, and then try to try to build opportunities for faculty and staff and students, working interprofessional Lee. And then I think, third, there was another initiative or project going on known as Cav or Creative Arts for vets using arts based wellness to express through non-verbal means to help veterans regarding various invisible wounds, and how to maybe cope or deal with those that were not, that were not maladaptive. And I think really it was kind of working together in an interprofessional, interdisciplinary nature on multiple fronts that I think it kind of then organically formed of how else we could better prepare future service providers. And I think that was sort of the beginning or the impetus, behind that. But I'd be happy if John wants to talk a little bit more how he saw it unfold.

John Kessler
Yeah. Thanks, dad. It's amazing how our memories are, Slightly different. It's. It's all true. What Todd said, but there was another component as well that stands out with me. And that we had another partner, Alex Purcell, from the School of Public Health at the time, that we set down to look at courses and curricula, across the university to see what was offered regarding, veteran health and well-being and surprisingly, or perhaps unsurprisingly, we realized that there was very little, that focused on veterans. And so creating, this training, was a way to fill that gap. And quite honestly, it was an easier way for us to do something about it than to look at creating a whole other course. Because as an interdisciplinary team, it brought up some challenges with where would the course be housed, who would teach it, how would it be funded, etc.. So that was another component that influenced our development of this, interprofessional, training, opportunity.

Alex Buchanan
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you guys for sharing that. And whether it be my professional life or personal life, I love talking about the veteran trauma and Transparency program, and I often get asked to describe it in kind of an elevator pitch or just describe it in general in a few sentences and in one. I think there's so much depth to the program that sometimes it's challenging, but how I always describe our program guys is it prepares future health care professionals or future professionals who will eventually work with the veteran population, specifically veterans who might be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and helps provide context, and guidance on how to work with that population. But I'm curious with with you, too, because you have your lived experiences, because you're so immersed with this program, I guess. How would you describe it to someone who listens to our interview and wants to learn more about the program?

John Kessler
I guess, one of the things that comes to mind with me is, ensuring that we're preparing students, to meet the demands of the field, and that I use those words broadly, because, quite frankly, we've had students from many different disciplines, everything from nursing and medicine to social work and psychology, to statistics and informatics. And so I think it's important for them to get a broad foundational level understanding, of veterans and those with military experience. And we take them through the walk, from everything from military culture, right through, challenges with service and then reintegration into civilian life.

Todd Burkhardt
yeah, I agree with everything John said. I think it's a great way to frame it as he did. Same with you, Alex. I would just add that I think we saw this really important. As John had mentioned, he and Alex look through, various, curricula and saw that there wasn't a course like this. And this is really, I think, client centric or patient centric or person centric, which sometimes in various courses, it's not, it might be certain applications or a theory of radical approach or whatever the case may be. But thought it was important to really focus on the veteran population, and some of the, invisible wounds that maybe, that population has been exposed to either through first hand trauma or second hand trauma. And so what we try to do in that with being at patient or client centric was talk about military culture or military identity. They indoctrinate of being in the military and then what it is like to serve and some of the side effects of service, whether that's stateside or in combat. Right? There can definitely be invisible wounds and trauma. And you have don't have to have been in combat to experience those things. And then one of the key things that we spend some time on is reintegration, coming back from deployment or from combat and reintegrating with the family unit unit and how that family unit has been affected. And then finally, I think a really a big piece of what we do, too, is having local service providers come in who work with veterans, to kind of educate, inform, our students of all the great resources that are out there that can help veterans. And I think a lot of the problems are if you don't know, you don't know. And so I think fundamentally, this is that's a key component of this. So I think I don't know if I did a good job with all that. But I think that's how I would kind of, identify this. And fundamentally, to better prepare a future service to providers to to really take care of veterans and military connected populations.

Alex Buchanan
Yeah. Yeah. I think you both hit the nail on the head. And I often think about what I learned. Because I was very novice when it came to the veteran population before this program. But whether it be basic training, reintegration, invisible wounds, what it's like to be the spouse or partner of an individual in the military, I feel like I've gathered a lot of information and learned a lot, but I'm curious what you two as instructors, and kind of the advisors of this program, what do you feel like you've learned in interacting with our guest speakers, or what do you feel like you've learned interacting with our students over these last three years?

Todd Burkhardt
I don't know if it surprises me, but I am absolutely thrilled by students appetite to want to be a part of this and their interest and understanding. Right. And, in order to hone their skills, whatever, whatever good they're going to do as a professional, whether that's a nurse or work in the criminal justice field or clinical psychology or be a medical doctor, whatever the case may be, they're they're they're hungry for this. They're interested in this. There's not a course like this, as John mentioned. And so this curriculum, this co-curricular course is really important to them. And I'm always inspired to see, amazing turnout from various different departments and schools time and time again. And, you know, we just finished our third year and our eighth course, on two different campuses, both the Indy campus and the Bloomington campus. So just thrilled and inspired by the students interest and passion.

John Kessler
Yeah. And for me, this whole opportunity is highlighted. The importance of collaboration. In educating students. We could not deliver this course or this training opportunity if it wasn't for collaboration. And with that being said, when you collaborate, you have to be flexible. You never know what's going to happen. Who's going to want what, if there's going to be a mishap. And so flexibility is, is really the key. And perhaps one more thing is, really highlighting the power of the lived story or the, you know, personal narrative. You know, so often we get stuck, as academics, delivering particular content. And that's valuable. And certainly we deliver content in this training. But what students walk away with time and again acknowledging is the power of, the personal narratives. And so we provide context through academic content, but also illuminate that, that academic content, if you will, through personal narratives and whether that's from, veterans or from spouses, or, you know, providers, that are working with veterans, that really is perhaps the most salient piece that students walk away with. And, and I think sometimes we underestimate the value, of that.

Alex Buchanan
Yeah. John, think. Thank you for sharing that. And in to kind of piggyback off of your thoughts in your answer, just interacting with some of our guest speakers over the years and then telling us or them telling me how therapeutic it is for them and how it's been a method of healing, just kind of sharing their story and being vulnerable. That's something I didn't expect in a million years. And kind of growing with them. I think anytime you implement a program, you watch it get better and you watch it grow. And I feel like the veteran trauma and Transparency program has done that. And I also feel like our guest speakers have done that. Watching them kind of develop their rhythms, their cadence for describing their experiences. Kind of having their, their go to stories because they're so powerful and impactful with our audience. Kind of growing along this journey with our guest speakers has been something I found really unexpected. But really powerful and really special.

Todd Burkhardt
Alex. And if I could. If I could just mention a I thought this is really interesting. You know, this last course we did, we had a couple community partners, who, facilitate equine assisted activities and had a veteran program. And we partnered with them doing arts based wellness. And they took our course, the AT&T course. And during that, when they were facilitating out at the ranch and, you know, then the veterans left, after the event, they said to me multiple times, oh, my gosh, like, I kind of see the connection points that you and John and Alex are talking about in our course. And now I kind of see it in real life, where I never would have realized some of the ways in which maybe veterans act or respond to things. It was because the time in service, and so I just think it just like to me, it validated some of the stuff that we're attempting to do, and showcase.

Alex Buchanan
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I often one of my kind of proud moments with the program and working with you is I feel like almost every session or even in meetings. Todd, someone will ask, you know, I'm a counselor or I'm a pure recovery coach or some kind of community based profession, and I work with the veteran population a lot, and I don't feel comfortable working with or advising with them because I didn't serve in the military. And, Todd, you always do such a great job of saying, you know what? As long as someone listens to me and shows empathy and kindness, that's that's what I'm looking for more than anything else. And I feel like that that almost puts the guard down, that like, hey, it's okay that you didn't serve in the military, but you can still be a human being looking out for another human being and and listening to them, in kind of showing that patient centered care that, that we try to describe. So I always love when you share that, out in the community. And so when I, when I think of kind of the future of our program, I always think community based, where I think our program can do a lot of good in local communities that work with a veteran population, and just giving them this guidance and information. And then also the virtual, setting. We're about to do our first veteran trauma transparency program online next week. So those two pieces are what kind of excite me about this program. And where I hope it goes in the future. But I'm curious, you guys, as kind of our content experts, where do you see this program going in the future?

John Kessler
Alex, you you bring up, you know, the training that we're going to be doing next week, online. And so that's going to be an experience we're going to have. And here again, is another example where we're going to have to be flexible to, you know, in collaboration. We're collaborating with folks, on the West Coast and we're going to have to adapt our, training. You know, we do for four modules typically. But we have delivered that, in combined sessions. And here we're going to combine all of them into one. We're going to have to exclude, you know, community providers simply because it's just impossible for us to to, you know, deliver it in the same way. But I think you bring a good point, in saying that, bringing this to community members, you know, so much of our focus has been on students. You know, we work for our you we're educators. Students are a captive audience. And we want to make sure that they're well prepared and going into the field. But simultaneously, we need to think about those that are already in the field. Those that might be transitioning from from one job to another, that may lack experience or exposure to veteran populations. And so this is another opportunity for us to, to collaborate with, community organizations and providers, to, to share this knowledge and experience with them as well. And also, you know, Todd had mentioned you don't know what you don't know. And so by going into the community and rolling it out there, we might learn something new as well for ourselves. And to, to adapt and modify that program further.

Todd Burkhardt
Yeah, I mean, I, I agree with everything John said. I would just add, Yeah. Really excited, as you both mentioned, about doing the virtual, veteran trauma transparency, curriculum, our co-curricular series next week with, at least as of now, 30, health care providers, from the state of Washington and Oregon. And so really looking forward to that. And also, you know, maybe see where the future is regarding community partners. we, you know, we haven't done that yet. And I think this thing can really, really grow, thrilled to say that we have five more courses this upcoming academic year, three on the campus and two on the Bloomington campus. And you know, Alex, I'll just mention or kind of further illuminate what you what you were talking about. I think I think another important factor of this that you highlighted is I think sometimes service providers or future health care providers might be a little have trepidation about working with veterans because they didn't serve in the military. And that could be that could be an obstacle. And what I try to inform everybody, I don't care that you didn't serve in the military. You're serving in whatever profession you're going into, whether that's nursing or social work or medicine or criminal justice or psychology or counseling. And I'm I'm thrilled. Right. You're giving back to society just like those who join the military are. But you're doing it in a different profession. And and I think that's laudable. But I think the key thing is you don't have to speak veteran, because that's not why I'm coming to see you. I, you know, I always say these three things. You should know your craft. So if you're a nurse or social worker, you should know your profession. But then fundamentally, hopefully don't see me or treat me as a number. I have been through years of that and then also some level of empathy and understanding, and I think that's what any real veteran, really wants, right? It's not the like you were in, you know, the Middle East with me or something. I don't really care. And so I'm not coming to see you to talk about war stories. I'm coming to you for assistance. And that's more important. So I try to always, you know, inform everybody in class, because I think that is important to kind of hopefully lower maybe the anxiety that that could, that could produced being like I never served the veteran. Now this person's been to war and done all these things and it doesn't matter. That's that's not why they're coming to see you.

Alex Buchanan
Yeah, absolutely. Thank. Thank you for sharing that, guys. And you know, when I think about this program and when I think about folks that will be listening to us go through this interview and kind of talk of our experience with the program for those who just want to learn more about the veteran population, what's one thing you'd like to convey or share from them from this interview that you wish they knew more about? The veteran population?

Todd Burkhardt
Do you have somebody

John Kessler
Yeah. So for me, one of the things that I talk about in. In the training, we show a brief video. And it talks about, you know, veterans and those serving in the military as warriors. But they're also human. And I think that's one thing that folks get out of this training. And I think it's also something important, regardless of the training, is that many of us have our own preconceived ideas about, folks that are in the military or those that have served, and what we need to challenge ourselves to do is to put those aside, to recognize the common humanity and to listen, let them tell the story, let them inform, how we approach them and what we do and our interactions. Again, it's it's the common humanity that keeps us moving forward. But we also need to be mindful of our own preconceived ideas and biases.

Todd Burkhardt
Yeah. I would add to that. I think that's a really nice point. I think every veteran has a story. Different story. just like every person. Right. And so I think it's important to hearing or listening to that person as they're explaining something to a, to a health care or professional or service provider. And I think at the end of the day, I think what we also try to bring across that you don't have to be a veteran to help a veteran, there's so many wonderful people that are interested in helping the veteran community or military connected population or those currently serving. And again, you don't have to have served, I think percentages are there's currently 1% of the adult population currently serving in the military, and there's a total of about 6% of the adult population in the United States that had served. So there's clearly. by far and large, a percentage of people who had never served. And there is, you know, there is a divide between serve military understanding, of course. Right. We served in different, professions and did different things. But I think there's a lot of commonality. And I think this just goes back to what John said. At the end of the day, people who serve in the military are human, just like anybody else.

Alex Buchanan
Absolutely. Absolutely. Once again, thank you for. Share your responses in. As we're about to kind of round up and close our interview, I, I do want to give kind of a shameless plug to our audience that although we have, like Todd mentioned, five total programs aligned for the upcoming academic year and about to try to a virtual program. We are open and still interested in working in collaboration, whether it be for the academic year or in the future. But for those who are interested in kind of the time range, it's usually about a two month span. And we usually do for 90 minute sessions, with ourselves and guest speakers We typically do them biweekly. So usually our program wraps up in a couple months. We just created a really nice format, I think, for all those, folks that do attend and all four sessions earn a certificate of completion from the IU ipi center. And then the virtual program we're still kind of tinkering with, and, and once again, it's a really powerful experience and something that I'm proud of, that we've really, turned the corner on over the last three years. So as we wrap up, John Todd, I just I always like to give kind of final thoughts to our guests. So any final thoughts that you guys would like to share about the program or the work that you've done? I welcome you share those. Now

Todd Burkhardt
mention one thing. I think this is, you know, we already talked about the course and impact on students, but I do want to mention something as well that, you know, fundamentally, this would me this was made possible through the interprofessional practice education and center, their strength in numbers or strength and diversity of thought and diversity of, professions. A team based approach. And so what we do in all four of our lessons is we do team work or group work that have been, you know, selected by their profession. So it's a great opportunity for various different, social work students to sit with nursing students, to sit with criminal justice students or what have you. And I think that's that's really powerful because they work together to figure out based on, you know, case studies or what have you, to kind of come to some type of resolution or, you know, program of maybe how they can help. And I just want to mention the other thing, I mean, the sheer diversity of different individuals or different professions from nursing, social work, medicine, community health, public health, criminal justice, psychological and brain sciences, clinical psychology, counseling, optometry, speech language and hearing. There's maybe others, but that I mean, the magnitude and the breadth is quite amazing. So.

John Kessler
Yeah. And I guess the one thing I would do is probably give a plug for, the IP center, the center for Rural Engagement as well. Both of these centers have enhanced my experiences as a faculty member at IU and my opportunity to work with others and and to give back, to the university community in, in new ways. Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone, but that's okay. It's really through that collaboration and that's collective knowledge, that we can make a difference.

Dave Plough
that's it. Season two of Collaborative Conversations is officially a wrap. That was the third of our bonus episodes. And the final of our bonus episode. So my thanks go out to Alex, John and Todd, especially to John. We had so many issues getting his recording recorded and then uploaded. The guy had to jump through massive hoops and John just I want to say thank you. I mean thank you to the others, but thank you to you specifically for being so patient with me as we figured out our technical issues. Many thanks to everyone else who's been a part of this season. We've had amazing people. We had Rick Phillips, we've had Ted Meyer and so many others that are not particularly associated with IUP, but who are out there doing the collaborative work, showing that this kind of stuff is important. And not only that's important, but that it happens in the real world. It's out there happening. It's important. It's impacting lives, and it's improving people's lives So thank you to everyone who's taken a part here in season two of Collaborative Conversations. Thank you to all you listeners. If you want to keep up with us in between seasons, you can do that. Our main source of public content is LinkedIn, and you can find us there by searching the Indiana University Interprofessional Practice and Education Center somewhere. As you're typing all of that up, we will pop up. We're there were the only one you could also try just type in IPSC, STR into whatever social media you're on. Chances are you'll come to one of our pages. You can also visit our website at ipu.edu, where you can get all the latest information and go a little bit deeper into the programing options that we have. So with that I'm going to go ahead and wrap up season two. Thank you all and we will see you next time on Collaborative Conversations.