Dave Plough
Hello everyone. Welcome to Collaborative Conversations. I am Dave Cloud. I'm joined by a with the director of the IU IPE center, doctor Barbara Maxwell.

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Welcome, everyone. 

Dave Plough
And today we are going to feature an interview between our own doctor April D Newton And Jodi Miller, who does a lot of work with our Collaborative Topics series, this season.  We're looking at the work in the communities and part of that work.  A lot of that work actually is through our collaborative topic series, which Alex Buchanan really kind of runs he interviewed Samantha Mitchell earlier in the season.  And another thing that he does that he's helped put together is our cycle of addictions experience.  that's between him. Jennifer, Barbara, April D Newton and, Jodi Miller have a huge hand in putting this cycle of addiction and experience together.  However, that's not all that they do.  That's not even all that Jodi helps us out with.  So, Barbara, would you mind filling us in on a little bit more of what they do and how they work together? 

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah. So, Doctor Newton is the, director of practice development for the Interprofessional Practice and Education Center.  And she's also a faculty member at IU School of Medicine and Family Medicine.  And Jody Miller is a peer recovery coach, for individuals with substance use disorder and addiction.  And so together, they've been working in both the education space and they've also been working in the clinical space.  On work that is focused on improving the care through collaboration.  The individuals who are struggling with substance use disorder or are in recovery for addiction, or heading towards recovery, hopefully, for, for addiction and substance use.  They work in that space on the education side.  They deliver the breaking the cycle of addiction experience, which is amazing.  Enter agents see, collaborative experience for learners where they actually pull together local services and agencies from health care, social care, from recovery, centers, from peer recovery coaches like Jody, and so many others, from social work, from the education sector, you name up from law.  They pull all these people together, that are local to the learners so that they can learn about what are the resources available, what can be offered to assist people.  And also they really clearly target what substance use disorder actually is breaking down some of the myths about substance use disorder and addiction, some of the cultural aspects where people and really judge people who have substance use disorder and addiction, and they address why that should not be the case.  By really talking about what it is and how it evolves and so Jody has that lived experience and the practice side.  Jody and April have been working in several different clinical situations.  In the IU School of Medicine's Family medicine clinic, in, Persistent Pain Clinic, a team based care clinic, and in, buprenorphine clinic, really trying to make sure that teams of health care professionals are actually supporting people who have substance use disorder, addiction, and, are in recovery or guiding them, hopefully towards recovery.  So they work together in those clinics to really ensure that all the team members that provide care to individuals who have substance use disorder or addiction, and are in the process of recovery at whatever stage they are in, and that they're actually cared for in a way that improves their lives and their outcomes through collaboration. 

Dave Plough
Want to add something before we get into it?  Before I throw it to, Jodi in April?  Throughout this interview, there's a lot of talk of the cycle breaking the cycles of addiction experience.  And there's a lot of talk of profiles.  And part of our cycles of addictions experience is that, you know, we gather together these great community partners, and we have our students, our learners.  And part of what they work through are these profiles that were created, by our Cycles of

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Yeah.  As part of the breaking the cycle of addiction experience, they've actually created, family tree, with individual profiles for a really diverse range of people who interact based upon this one central person.  KSA, and all of the members of her family and her social network and her, those she's connected with to really showcase high, that is the cycle of addiction high have an addiction within the family really impacting multiple people that it's a genetically based, condition.  It's highly genetically based.  And so recognizing the impact on families, the services and the needs that people have are very diverse.  If we just look at the individual and we don't address all of those around them who are also in that cycle of addiction and experiencing the impact of it.  So that's why those profiles are so important, because it allows the people participating to actually see the breadth of services that are needed, the depth of services that they're needed and that they're needed for that entire family unit. 

Dave Plough
Yeah, absolutely.  And now that we've added the context, let's go ahead and throw it off to April and Jodi. 

Dr. April D. Newton
And, Jodie, you're so involved in so many things in the recovery world.  I know we are fortunate to have found you when we were starting to think about this program, and we really didn't even have a title for it.  And I remember first meeting you in your previous position in a house in Indianapolis.  Can you remember some of that experience and how we met and and what it was like when we were asking you about joining us to develop out a program, literally from scratch?  It was just a brainchild, and we felt like something needed to be done because of the epidemic with substance use disorders and especially with opioid use. 

Jodi Miller
Yeah.  I was, just reflecting on that and thinking about just the history, and going back to just the beginning, and I remember when I worked for Mental Health America of Indiana as, the deputy director for the Indiana Addictions Issues Coalition.  I remember in the beginning, when, you came to me and said, hey, would you want to be a part of a project that we're working on?  And I was like, sure, that sounds great.  And just serve as that subject matter expert.  I always think that sounds like a funny thing to call myself, but I was very interested and, it's it's pretty amazing, how far we've come.  and all the people we've been able to really take this program to and, and travel within the state, outside of the state, were getting into to high school students now and we're, we're we're evolving and growing.  And that's the exciting thing about this is just so many people that have been touched by this program. 

Dr. April D. Newton
Do you remember when we were trying to decide upon how to develop the profiles and you really helped shape and form that through your peer recovery experience.  and I think this may be a good time.  to share what is a peer recovery coach and your experience and how you were that content expert for us, and the importance of having you on our team, because it would not be the success today if it weren't for your input and your experiences as to be able to assist us. 

Jodi Miller
Yeah. Well, thank you for that.  April. And.  Yeah, looking back on that, I forgot to say that I am a certified, peer recovery coach, and I'm also a certified health and wellness coach.  And, this takes me back to, to even just the beginning of my own recovery journey.  And I'm a person in long term recovery when I first got started, I really wanted to work with women.  my degree from Ball State is a background in food and nutrition.  So I just really wanted to further develop that.  And, and, so I, I got a certification with, well, coaches at a as a health and wellness coach.  And I was like, well, I really want to get involved with women in recovery.  And so through a connection that I had at Fairbanks, a woman, who was the first certified peer recovery coach in the state of Indiana. 

Dr. April D. Newton
Oh, my. 

Jodi Miller
I got connected with her.  Her name's Rita Tattersall, and she's like, you should go to, to Mental Health America of Indiana, and you should, find out about this.  This grants, for peer recovery coaches.  So I just followed her lead and ended up going through the training.  And I was the 15th person certified in the state, as a, certified peer recovery coach.  And and from that, I ended up working at Fairbanks.  I did my internship in the, Women's Recovery Management.  And then from there, I went into their a supportive living program as the women's coordinator there.  And and that's really when I started doing more of the, the individual work as a peer recovery coach.  And, I got to further develop my own program that I had developed when I was going through my Health and Wellness Coaching certification in two.  So, it was a combined effort on that.  But that's when I really started doing this work.  that the direct service work, and working with individuals, which became really, my passion and really what, what I've been able to do and I, that's what's so important for me to continue doing some direct service work so that I can do more, on the bigger picture, some more of that advocacy work and that's really, where I see myself, today and with this project and being able to offer some of the things that I've learned, not only in my personal recovery journey, but also working with other people in recovery and, and just going back to that beginning and developing that first, that first case study that we built around some some ideas that we all had, Casey as we know her.  I feel like all of these, profiles that we've developed have just, they've grown over the years and they've, they've changed, they've developed, and it's really come alive, I guess, we all feel that way, I'm sure about the profiles and, how attached we are to them, So now. 

Dr. April D. Newton
And I think about, as you said, that as we deliver the program and we're delivering this program now, like you said to high school students, to undergraduate students, to our pre-professional students, as well as professionals and others that are in the communities and majority of them are throughout Indiana.  But, we are extending beyond that.  It's so interesting how I feel like every time we meet and we discuss our next program, they're like family to us.  We have we've really learned about them and who they are.  But yet as we deliver the program, it's the person on the paper and how our audience and the participants are getting so much information about substance use disorder and about how addictions and those experiences of others really influence and impact the lives of the individuals around them.  And I feel like that has been a really important piece that I've learned from you, because we can all say that we can empathize with someone and we can try to understand what they're going through.  But I really think this program gets to the heart of what that recovery experience is really like.  And I'm curious, how does it help you in your own recovery experience and and what is it like when we're asking you questions?  It's like, Jody, do you think we're demonstrating that person correctly, or do you think that we are talking about that in the right frame of of conversation and language? 

Jodi Miller
I'm I to just share just my own, personal recovery and how important it is for me.  Because when I first started working in recovery, I thought, wow, this is is this kind of kind of, caused me some issues in my own recovery rather than, you know, you know, how am I going to separate that?  and I've really had to learn to do that, where I can't, really count the work that I do as my own recovery work that I do, if that makes sense.  And, over the years, and just from my own experience working with a lot of people and a lot of, women in the jail systems and, just in the treatment systems and a lot of different areas, I've, it's really what recovery is all about is, is we start sharing our stories because there's there's always so much shame and guilt and that stigma that we continue to talk about.  And here I want to think it gets is getting better.  I know it's it's hard to gauge that because, I'm in the recovery community.  But I think in general, the more we talk about things and the more we share our stories.  And I think that was a lot of my own fear in the beginning, too, is like, oh, gosh, I'm going to be putting out there, And, is that going to be detrimental to my own recovery?  But what I have found is the more that I share my own story, I begin to heal and I begin to, recover and, and in turn, inspire others.  And, I'm not, alone in this this is really how recovery works.  Because, when you're in your own addiction and you are so alone and you feel like there's just no one that understands what you're going through, and, you're you're very trapped.  And, I, I want to just say you're imprisoned in that own mindset, but but when you share it with someone else and say, I know where you've been, I've had a similar experience, I'm in recovery.  Then, something changes.  something magical happens there.  And that connection that, that I make with that individual and, and that was a gift that was given to me.  And so, as part of recovery, we continue to just keep giving that gift away to other people.  And by sharing our own experience, instead of holding it in and feeling shameful and, so much guilt that really keeps us stuck in our own, addiction, if because that's, that's just that's not good for us. 

Dr. April D. Newton
I know when we deliver the program, we start with more of, like, a didactic presentation session to really get the participants to understand what are we going to be talking about.  And, and really the heart of the matter.  And we also always have some other individuals in the session with us that can assist people if it becomes difficult.  We know this content and the subject area can be difficult for those people who may be in recovery themselves.  And I you've hit the nail on the head.  I think it really becomes an isolated experience for many individuals until they're there, surrounded by that village of people getting them through recovery.  And what it's reminded me of, I remember we were in Muncie at Ball State presenting this, and one of the participants said, you may know where I live, but if you haven't walked in my shoes down my street, you don't understand who I am.  And that just impacted me so much, because we know that substance use disorders and addictive experiences that people are are living with day in and day out.  It doesn't discriminate.  And we talk about that in the profiles that we have literally made from scratch.  And it just amazes me how something that was a, a seedling.  And then we have developed it into something that is hopefully inspiring others to help individuals in their lives as well as themselves.  And so here's here's maybe a question for you.  You are one of the the panelists that we have.  And many of our programs representing your your field and profession as a peer recovery coach, how do you how are you seeing them really attached to that and understand that and, and think about, oh my goodness, I've never heard of a peer recovery coach before. 

Jodi Miller
Yeah. Well I'm going to just give you the example of, when I've done some work in the buprenorphine clinic.  Right.  And,

Dr. April D. Newton
Glad you're mentioning that. 

Jodi Miller
And that's been a great experience for me because, that allows me to, to go into a room where I'm patient is, working with a team of, doctors and resident doctors, but there's, and they do a fantastic job.  The medical professions.  But when I walk in there and I say, I'm a person in long term recovery, and I understand, what you're going through, and, I, I work at 12 Step recovery program.  And, when I let my guard down and share that, something changes like, like I said, that that magic happens.  And, when I start sharing just some of my own personal experience, when I say yes, I have, gone through treatment.  I'm involved in 12 step recovery.  I've been in jail, I mean, I go go into the jail to do classes, but I've been in jail before.  I mean, and that is so shameful, but when I share that, and I realize and I let people know that, addiction has taken me to very dark places.  And, that's really what a peer recovery coaches is, someone that can share their own lived experience, and that's really the difference, in the professional world where, a doctor or a counselor, they don't share their personal stories.  And, that's why this collaborative project that we work on is so important.  And I think just showing that, a peer recovery coach, we can work together.  We can we can work alongside each other.  We collaborate, we help each other.  Because what I like to always explain it, as I align resources as a peer recovery coach.  And over the years I've been able to collect a lot of good resources.  And and that's just from my own, experience in the work that I had done.  But that's not how my brain works.  I'm always like, how can I connect that person with that person to that person?  that's really what a peer recovery coach as someone with that lived experience.  So, if you're a counselor or you're a doctor, you're the resident doctor working alongside doctor Carol Dellinger on that team, they can say to me, Jody, What do you think about this and that?  And that's empowering.  that's empowering.  And what felt like a curse to me in the beginning of just like, oh, gosh, I've dealt with alcoholism my whole life.  That's been a part of my family's, that cycle of addiction to my own family.  But, for me to be able to help other people and make that connection, and to work alongside other professionals, as we develop this profession as peer recovery coaches, it's a game changer.  And I've seen it in many different levels.  even just through the podcast that I do on Beyond Substance podcasts, I've interviewed personal stories and we're in our second season, so there's a lot we were just reflecting on that, yesterday in our, in our meeting.  But just how many people we've talked to and, there's so, so many people out there aren't many people I know that are somewhat touched by, a level of addiction.  So, it's just the more we talk about it, the more we share.  How can we work together, how can we just help more people?  that's that's the bottom line.  How can we help more people get connected to so many good resources?  And we've been able to have a lot of good programs and things put into place.  So it's just it's about helping people.  And that's really what I think recovery is for most people as a community that really just wants the best, and wants to see people change their lives and that's the fun part of it.  the, the miracles that that I get to see and the changes and, I know you've seen a lot of that, even through your work at the buprenorphine clinic.  And, you just you get connected to the people.  And even in our, the cycle of addiction experience, we get connected to our profiles and we and we get to share those with other people that that's where they come alive.  And people, that's that lived experience.  So, it's unique and I think it's a great, a great program that we're able to offer. 

Dr. April D. Newton
Will you have me fighting back tears?  You. You're always.  You can be so vulnerable.  And I think that's what we do a lot of times, when, when we're in our team based care clinics and we have patients in front of us, and, and they don't know the next step, and they, they really they're not sure where to turn.  And then Jody Miller walks in, You can say this is tough because this is something I think that is at the core, both of our hearts and, and, and being able to share this, we'll share with the listeners a little bit about the setup of of what we do, because you mentioned both with the buprenorphine clinic and we're talking about the cycle of addiction, which is how we truncate that title.  So this program is made up of ten different profiles.  and the profiles aren't all related as we've had to point out within discussions, because we only present up to 2 to 3 profiles at one time, And within these profiles, we have other individuals with other types of recovery experiences and going through some long term recovery, and ones that are bystanders that have been influenced by someone that has been impacted by a substance use disorder and when we present them, we have more of this didactic presentation.  And, and we have panelists from the community that we're presenting in that includes sometimes they vary, but a physician that is very educated in pain or addictive experiences or addiction programing and we may have nurse practitioner, a nurse, a social worker, we've had a chaplain before.  Obviously peer recovery coaches, a lot of different individuals that work within the team experience with individuals that are going through recovery.  And then after that presentation, which is very a short part of what we're doing, we really delve into the profiles.  And we give time up to 20 to 30 minutes with the participants and the panelist really dissecting and understanding and reflecting upon the experience of that individual in the profile.  sometimes I feel like we could be there all day long talking about the individuals that we're presenting and knowing that we don't have that time.  But that is the level of engagement.  And this is a program now that we will share throughout the state of Indiana.  And as I said, we're moving into other states and and really starting with secondary high school individuals and students So a wonderful program that anyone can be connected with us to learn more about it.  And then now I want to skip over to our buprenorphine clinic, which is you mentioned that team based care clinic that has multiple individuals seeing patients that are on buprenorphine for their substance use disorder and their recovery program, which to me has just really enlightened what we're doing in medicine because we're taking this harm reduction approach and getting people involved in another way to save themselves.  I really feel like and every time, Jodie, I think about your role and and having you here and celebrating your recovery, it's because you took that next step into the recovery world.  And you now are helping individuals through our program and through our clinical team, also helping people and I'm an educator and a team player.  I we bring the psychological safety to all of our programing and making that a place where I just started this long discussion about vulnerability and being vulnerable.  And I can't imagine sometimes just the emotions that it takes from you to be able to, to be involved with us during many of the programs that we're conducting. 

Jodi Miller
Well thank you for the kind words Apryl.  And I just want to say it has been an honor for me to be on this team from day one.  And just to be a part of this whole project with IU and, it is an emotional journey and, and like you said, there's just a lot of, emotions that come up, and I just love the idea that, there's this team approach to helping people, and that's what it takes.  It takes a village.  And, I'm so grateful that I'm a part of this program, and I'm just excited to see how it continues to grow and continue to just help more people and help, the collaborative effort within the professions of, how can we all work together to be part of that village for for people that are struggling with addiction because there is a better way to live.  There is a solution, there is no cure, but there's a solution that, that, that you can live in and, and that world, for myself and just so many other people, is really amazing and beautiful, and I'm grateful.  So thank you.  Thank you. 

Dave Plough
April and Jodi.  So thank you both for being here.  This interview took forever to get set up because they're both just so busy.  But I'm so happy we were able to get it.  Not just because great conversation, but also.  And you might have seen me, those of you that are watching the video saw me smile a lot during the opening, despite the heavy, despite the heavy content, this just happens to be probably my favorite thing that there are that we do here at IU whip because of all the people it brings in and all the work we do with it, and being in the room with them, hearing the students, hearing our community members, it's just a really great program that we work on.  So I was very happy to be talking about it.  And to have Jodi come in and talk about that, and also the view that more often I

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Buprenorphine. 

Dave Plough
worth it.  I can't say it.  That's why I had you do the heavy lifting in the beginning.  So also, Barbara, thank you so much for doing the heavy lifting in the intro

Dr. Barbara Maxwell
Oh, not a problem.  Not a problem.  And I think it's just amazing to hear, Jodi talk about the importance of, peer recovery coaches and what they do.  Because a lot of people have never experienced what a peer recovery coach does or what they could do.  And I've seen Jodi in the break in the cycle of addiction counseling, you know, talking with people afterwards who come from the learners and, and want to kind of share some personal stories and have that conversation.  And it really emphasizes how powerful it is to share our own stories.  And, you know, Jodi talks a lot about the power of sharing her own story and what it does for her own well-being as well, that it supports her.  Continued recovery to share her story.  And just the impact of having all these amazing services available within the community.  But if we don't know they're available, if we've never had an experience like this, we've not been exposed to them.  How do we know how to help people kind of navigate through substance use disorder?  And so just a fantastic, set of information and advice.  And, you know, these are our neighbors.  These are patients and clients that we see all the time.  Their addiction is a huge problem.  And finding the right way to support people and and doing it in a way that is sensitive, that it's not stereotyping and that is aware of the amazing services that are available.  But let's find out how to access them. 

Dave Plough
And if you would like to learn more about our Breaking the Cycles of Addiction experience, or our Veterans Trauma and Transparency program, or even our IP core curriculum, you can do that by visiting our website, ipu.edu, or by following us on social media.  As I've said throughout the, this entire series, we live mostly on LinkedIn.  That's the place to really find us.  Just search up the Indiana University Interprofessional Practice and Education Center.  with that, we'll go ahead and wrap this episode thank you all for listening.  Thank you for being there.  And, you know, to keep up with everything that we're doing.  Follow us on social.  Be sure to subscribe to this channel.